Again, Facebook is the start of some great conversations. After the entire Chick-fil-a fiasco, I posted a picture of a KFC billboard that said, “We support Chick-fil-A and their Christian beliefs.” Some liked it, some commented. But the latest was from my aunt, whom I have a great and open relationship. Her last comment and the subject of this post was, “if your god loves everyone, who are you to judge anyone?” And thus the conversation continues.
First, some definitions are in order to put us on the same page.
Love
Many songs and poems are written about this 4-letter word. Do we still have an accurate idea of what this means? I posit that we don’t. Although, there are 4 different connotations of the word “love” in the Greek language, the one I am most concerned with at the moment is agape. This can basically be summarized as non-conditional, everlasting, and selfless commitment to another person. However, it is not a forcing love. I love my wife dearly and would be heartbroken if she ever decided to leave me, but that doesn’t mean that I lock her up if she tries. I allow her to make her own decisions, but regardless of her attitude towards me, I still love her. I believe that the most famous example is that of Christ and his love for humanity. Even while being hung on a cross, he still asked his father to forgive them.
So, does God love everyone? I believe he does. There is much evidence in the Bible that God calls everyone into relationship with Him and I believe that while on this earth everyone has been touched by God and understands that He does love them. The choice to accept this or not still remains. Now, if God loves everyone, is he pleased with everyone? Absolutely not! There are atrocities in this world that my mind cannot even comprehend and when I see the innocent killing of children, inside or outside the womb, I am deeply grieved and have to turn it off before my anger and sadness overwhelm me. Husbands beating wives, neglected children, and even the disobedience of my own children are things that I am not pleased with. Some of these demand greater consequences than others, but in all, they still grieve my heart and the heart of God.
Judge or Judgment
Another word that today has been given a negative connotation because it is widely used out of context. The root of its meaning takes us back to a court room where the judge must make a decision in order to uphold the rules and therefore peace. No one walks into a court room and shouts at the attorney’s and says, “Who are you to judge?” Obviously, it is not the intent nor is it the right of a lawyer to pass judgment. Their job is strictly to present the case to the judge who will ultimately make a decision.
Then there is the topic of justice. If God wasn’t just and fair, then he would cease to be good. In the same way that a judge who looked at the evidence of a murderer and determined, “I love you too much to hurt you, so you can go free.” What a crappy god that would be. Seriously, who wants to honor and serve a god that doesn’t have consequences for evil. We have forgotten in this country that judgment is a good thing. We should all strive to be judged. How are we going to get better if not judged. What kind of Olympics would we have if there were no judges? What kind of sports games would we have if there were no scoreboard? Our judgment, whether from God or some other authority is a good thing.
So, let’s marry these two ideas; love and judgment. Now, the original comment was made that if my God loves why do I judge. The answer to that lies in the fact that I don’t judge. I will not ever take the place of the final decision and the consequences of other people’s actions. Why? Because I have been judged myself in my own heart and found guilty. However, I have been given grace and therefore, I continue to give grace to all others. So, while I do not judge the hearts of homosexuals, I do not agree, nor do I support their lifestyle. Does that mean I hate them? Absolutely not! Why would I hate someone my own creator has loved. I would then be in direct competition with God and that never bodes well for me.
So, do I love others? Yes, absolutely and completely because I have been shown what love is. Do I judge others? Absolutely not. It is not my place, nor do I want the job. It is the wonderful freedom of this country to exercise free speech and I believe that Chick-fil-A has done an excellent job of exercising this right, regardless of what the social consequences might be. If anything else, I encourage you to respect the fact that they have the right to their own opinion whether you agree with them or not. Many other companies have spoken with the same right in support of these issues and I respect them for it as well. In the end, I’ll let God be the judge, and I will love them.
It’s funny to me that Chick-Fil-A has come out against homosexuality and yet they indulge the greed and gluttony of so many. But that’s what people do…everyone seems to have their own pet “sin” that they oppose and then overlook so many others. We can all say we don’t judge but we do…even if we don’t say it out loud. To look at someone and say “I have the answer and I am right and you are wrong” makes one feel superior to the other. I try not to judge people for their sins and yet I find myself judging people who judge. I think it is our nature and it’s really hard to control. And that’s where grace and forgiveness comes in from our God=)
No matter what I think about Chick-Fil-A or anybody else…I do support their right to Free Speech. We just have to keep in mind that we are responsible for what we say and that theres always going to be people who don’t like our opinion and sometimes there’s consequences. That’s ok. Jesus told us we’d be persecuted in His name so….there ya go.
You’re an awesome writer Lee and you have a very kind and loving spirit. I think people who may poo poo this message from others will receive it from you because of the way you present it. You go boy! =P
Thanks Keri. I think that you will find that whenever we have a spirit of judgment, it is never from Christ but always within ourselves. Keep living, keep loving, forgive much and forgive often.
I think your evaluation of Love is missing one key piece. Until the 1920s when Hollywoodland popularized love as a noun it was mostly seen and used as a verb. Love isn’t what you feel, its what you do. As a Christian my question to other Christians is how do we love (verb) by saying your life must cost more (health care, taxes and so on) and you can’t have basic rights for your loved one like making health decisions for a 30+ year life partner when they are on their death bed. Seems to be this isn’t love (verb) at all.
And really, as Shawshank Redemption taught us, a love not shown is a love not known. So how is saying “You have less rights than the rest of us, and we’ll fight for it” showing love at all? I see it as showing fear, contempt, and even hate. None of which are Christian values.
I also find it interesting how the average Christian is fine with taking Jesus saying to interpret the old testimate as types and shadows when it comes to treating woman equally and even in some cases tithing but not when it comes to homosexuality. I have yet to find where Jesus said to interpret the old testimate with types and shadows only sometimes, but not when you don’t want too. Further Where did Jesus talk about homosexuality at all? And the few times the new testimate even talks about homosexuality the greek word is translated into other meanings too not just homosexuality, and the literal translation would be week or soft man which could easily mean a sissy or a man who doesn’t protect his family or an immature man.
Lastly the one case where Jesus does deal with alternate sexuality life styles which is the very well known don’t cast a stone unless you are without sin. So really I see that as you can’t say anything or do anything negative against homosexuals at all, including blocking gay marriage. The piece most people miss is Jesus was without sin, and he loved (verb) the woman very directly. He protected her, honored her, allowed her to wash his feet which was huge. He gave her a right that nobody else would give her. How do we not take that picture and apply it today and say “Oh wow, lets vote to let Gays marry because it is biblical as well.”
Forgive my ignorance, but not sure I’m understanding completely the health care / taxes comment. But, I whole-heartedly agree with you regarding love must be shown and not felt. But it goes back to my “Good?” post in that the actions must come from the heart.
As far as biblical references of homosexuality and marriage, I could quote I Cor. 6:9 or Romans 1:26 & 27, but you’re right it comes down to interpretations. However, perhaps if we look at what the overall purpose of marriage is.
Marriage was ordained by God to show the relationship between himself in the person of Jesus Christ and us as a community of believers called the church. (Eph. 5:25-27, II Cor. 11:2) Furthermore, this speaks to the purity, especially sexually, of a bride and bridegroom before marriage as well. (a different topic, but one still dear to my heart) When we introduce the belief that homosexuality is permissible then we negate this purpose of marriage. Unfortunately, our view of marriage in this society is heartbreaking anyway. Commitments without follow-through abound which breaks my heart also.
One question I have been wrestling with is, “If homosexuality is permissible, then where does sexual orientation have it’s limits?” Is it confined to gender, could it also include age? What about species? If I should be respectful and supportive of two consenting same-sex adults, then perhaps I should also be supportive of female-canine relationships as well? What about 13 year-old boys and 30 year-old women? Would you support that kind of relationship?
Do we draw the line somewhere? I believe we do. You may draw it somewhere different than I do and I respect your choice as I ask you to respect mine. The reference to Jesus and the prostitute is a great illustration of Jesus’ love, but the woman didn’t come to Jesus looking for approval. Her very reason for coming was forgiveness because of her sin, which Jesus lovingly granted. “How do we not take that picture and apply it today?” Because gays are not looking for forgiveness, they are looking for validation which I don’t believe the Bible, nor Jesus will do.
Now, if you take this reply as hate speech against gays, then you are seriously missing the point and I hope that you know me better than that. There is a standard by which we are to live. While I agree that those standards are sometimes different for different people, there are some foundational guidelines that God has asked us to follow; this being one of them. I don’t look down on gay people. I don’t hate them. And I certainly have no intention of wishing harm or ill-will towards them. So, I hope that just because my beliefs differ from them or you, that they will have the same courtesy with me, because if I was in need I would hope they would love (in action) me too. They are welcome in my house, at my table, and with my family.
First I don’t take any of what you said as hate in anyway. I haven’t had a non hateful or fearful conversation with another christian other than my wife until this one. Even with pastors of mine which is sad.
As to the example around where to draw the line, I have always found that all the examples you’ve given that others have given are ridiculous because those don’t include the mature ability to choose and be aware of that choice on both sides. I don’t believe a canine or a 13 year old is fully mature or capable in making a decision an adult does. Though to another point on what marriage has become I also agree. I’ve read some statistics that show the church has equal or higher divorce rate than secular society which is sad.
Though most divorces, mine included are due to a lack of maturity either for getting in the relationship or properly handling the relationship once there. I would be interested in seeing ideas on how to increase maturity before allowing unions to be formed or children to be made. Good luck with that one lol.
As for what Marriage is defined as, not a whole lot of an argument there. They are both in the new testimate and I have read them. What I can’t get passed is the rights and privileges denied gay people in a relationship that heterosexuals have. As for taxes filing as married vs. head of household saves you a bucket load of money, for my wife and I last year it was just over a $3000 difference for us. Health insurance you can’t include a non spouse or child in your plan so you have to have two plans which costs more. What about divorce, how does that get handled? Very little if any help from the court system in comparison particularly if the separation goes bad. As mentioned what if ones is on their death bed, how do you ensure the others wishes are met if you didn’t have the foresight to get power of attorney worked out in advance?
I mean how would your family feel if they were made to pay more, not given the same rights as somebody else even though you love them. And when I think it’s our job to be love not just feel love, I don’t see how looking at somebody and saying “Sorry, you’re less of a person and get less rights, now come praise Jesus with me.”
Should Marriage even be a state recognized event? Should it be justice of the peace for all and if you want your religion or church to recognize your union then get married too? I don’t know and don’t have answers for these.
And lastly as Gays are looking for forgiveness, how can they be looking for forgiveness if we can’t clearly interpret if Homosexuality is even wrong? Comes back to Jesus was partially here to help us understand how to interpret things, many believes he turned on their head. As to the picture with the whore, I by no means classify sleeping around even close to the same as having a sexual relationship in a deep and committed relationship where both have the proper maturity.
Again, love this back and forth. Having a debate with somebody who can debate without feeling anger or fear or at least expressing them and getting flustered is fantastic!
Jeremy?? The same Jeremy I have a lovely conversation with on Lee’s facebook page? Did you really think our conversation involved hate or fear? On to more (or less) material matters: I thought you might find it interesting to know that neither my husband or I believe that the civil government has any business defining marriage. That is wholly the jurisdiction of the family and church. But I derive that very belief from Biblical principles and also think that you (and Lee) are both treading very close to the idea of “relative truth” instead of “absolute truth.” If all truth originates with God and God is knowable, then logically it follows that absolute truth is knowable. By the bye, -Lee, the Biblical picture of marriage is NOT Christ and humanity, but that of Christ and His Church. 😉
Hi Rebekah! =)
Absolute truth? – Yes I agree.
Relative truth? – For lack of a better term, I am going to say that I believe in “relative truth” as well. However, don’t dismiss this as an “I’m ok. You’re ok,” thinking. Very far from the truth. However, I do believe that God calls his people into different areas. (married / not married , drink alcohol / not drink alcohol, etc.) I do agree that homosexuality does not fall within this category.
Also, here is my original quote regarding marriage – Marriage was ordained by God to show the relationship between himself in the person of Jesus Christ and us as a community of believers called the church. Thus, we agree again. =)
Rebekah,
One in the same. And no I never thought our conversation had anything to do with hate or fear on either end, I enjoyed it very much even though it did get passionate for a bit huh? We were talking about government and politics not religion and God. My statement until today was true about religion and God. I find most people can’t handle or even contemplate anything about God or religion that they don’t already believe. I find that to be a fearful approach myself.
Of course being a relatively new Christian not raised in the church I recognize it is vastly easier for me to challenge the status quo than it is for others. Take my wife for example who was raised in the church and struggles a good deal with what she was raised with vs. what she reads or learns on her own or with me today.
As for absolute truth and relative truth, first I’ve ever heard either of those terms and now have a homework assignment tonight looking them up.
And as for government not being involved in marriage, I figured that’d be an easy win with you LOL. And I think we both agree on small government. I have only ever worked with one government employee I felt was worth their weight in salt. Much like every union I have experience with, just governments of another breed anymore.
I think we just disagree most on how to get there, I’m not a fan of just a hard cut over, mostly because in my career that has never gone well in my experience. I want to see a plan to get us there. I love how folks on both sides of the major isle (DEM/REP) both talk about small government, and then grow the government when they get in office.
Did you know we spend more money on our military than the whole rest of the world combined each year? That number scared me a bit.
Though, if you’d like to give me a head start on absolute vs. relative truth I’d be appreciative of it. And just from the brief description I agree God is truth and God is knowable. I have this whole speech on why we’re not “Betty Crocker” versions of ourselves that I think goes along with the little blurb you gave me here. Looking forward to learning more.